Lucy        : Hi, Renny!

Renee      : Look at you! You look so great, so hip!

Lucy        : Hi!

Renee      : Fun!

Lucy        : Look at you! (Renee: I know.) Tiny, tiny, little bump. (Renee: My ti—) Tiny little bump.

Renee      : Wow, yeah.

 

***

 

Lucy        : You see Daisy up there with a parrot on her shoulder? That’s at Christmas time.

Renee      : Oh, really? God, look at her! Her haircut too!

Lucy        : Well now she has a green Mohawk.

Renee      : Does she really? I love it!

Lucy        : Yeah. She just started film school, you know.

Sharon     : Is it a real Mohawk shaved on the sides, or I know it’s—

Lucy        : My daughter?

Sharon     : Yeah.

Lucy        : She… she has a real Mohawk.

Sharon     : ‘Cause when I saw her last time and her hair was up with this green but it wasn’t shaved on the sides.

Lucy        : Oh, yeah. No, you’re right. It’s probably just a little bit, uh… it’s pretty short though. It’s like number… number 2—

Renee      : Wow.

Lucy        : …Shaving scale. Wow.

Renee      : And she ma—and she dyed it green?

Lucy        : Green on top. So she wants me to send her some new, um, green hair dye, like they don’t have it in New Zealand.

Renee      : Right.

Lucy        : Like, ‘only the Hot Topic one will do the job.’ 

Renee      : That is so funny.

Sharon     : Did you see Sly Stone last night? His Mohawk?

Lucy        : I didn’t!

Renee      : I did. (Sharon: It was about this tall…) oh, my God!

Sharon     : He had shaved head, it was about this tall and it was flaming blonde, I guess.

Renee      : Platinum.

Sharon     : Platinum.

Lucy        : Cool!

Renee      : Almost platinum.

Sharon     : Yeah. I mean— So she got it—she got it going on.

Renee      : He could barely walk, you know? The heaviness of it.

Sharon     : Taller than his head.

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : He is hilarious.

Sharon     : You look a bit different, Renee, than the last time we were together.

Renee      : Not that different, really, right? When I saw you we were at the convention.

Sharon     : Well… since… then since Lucy…

Renee      : Oh, Lucy… (Lucy: I know.) Yeah. Well it’s funny because last time I was here we had… you guys were having a party? Um… a little get together?

Lucy        : Oh, yeah.

Renee      : ‘Cause I was gonna… you know, my plan was to tell you I was pregnant, you know? But there were so many people here, and we never actually got a chance to kinda sit down and chat alone and I didn’t really wanna, you know, go, ‘oh, by the way…”

Lucy        : ‘…pregnant.’

Renee      : ‘…I’m pregnant.” You know, that was a surprise to me. But, yeah, so then um, I guess I told you before your… your concert. That was my only other opportunity.

Lucy        : Oh, that’s right. That’s right. You’re five months at the time.

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : It took 5 months to—five months to tell me!

Renee      : I know.

Lucy        : See, if I had gone on the internet more, I would know these things.

Renee      : No, no. I—no, I—it wasn’t?

Lucy        : I know.

Sharon     : No, no. She knew before we—yeah. Before you actually…

Renee      : It was pretty a big se—

Lucy        : I know that.

Renee      : Quiet and private. Private moment.

Lucy        : You’re kind of a pretty quiet private person (Renee: I am!) anyway.

Renee      : Especially on this one. You know?

Sharon     : And you both have had kids while you were pregnant. Uh, how was—how was Miles… does he talk to you about the coming baby and, uh, what is his input?

Renee      : We put up a crib in, um, have the little plush toys and stuff, all the pink stuff –which is funny—so he goes in and he throws them out, brings in Batman and Spiderman dolls…

Lucy        : Something that he liked better.

Renee      : Yeah. No, we’re having him to play Batman cave and I’m the bad guy… takes the head off the bad guy and then he throws it into the crib, you know? And so… it’s just a play toy right now. Anything to do with the baby’s a plaything that he can enjoy. But then every now and then he’ll come up and kiss my belly and he makes up a name for the little girl everyday.

Lucy        : What was his latest?

Renee      : Actually his latest was pretty traditional. It was like ‘Olivia’ or something, you know. But, um—

Lucy        : What was the craziest one he came up with?

Renee      : Oh, I don’t remember. You know you don’t remember anything when you’re pregnant. I never really do day-to-day—

Lucy        : Yeah, you really don’t. When I tried to do the Vagina Monologues I could hardly (Renee: I don’t know how you did that.) learn my lines. I don’t know how I did it either except that was… (Renee: Sheez.) I could hardly get through it. It was rea—

Renee      : I would have nightmares or something that—

Lucy        : God!

Renee      : God, that’s amazing!

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : So I don’t remember. No. Sorry. It’s hard to explain.

Lucy        : Our sons make up really grand names for things like, ‘Black Lord of the Fire’ and uh, ‘Night Ears’. These are our animals’ names.

Renee      : Those are of the animals?

Lucy        : Yeah, yeah. Cats, and snakes and things.

Sharon     : Something I was gonna tell people that… you’ve now announced that your dogs and… your cats and your dog don’t go together and I wanna spill the beans, that’s my dog! We gotta clue people in here. She’s blaming it on the dog people.

Renee      : What do you mean? What do you mean?

Sharon     : We filmed something at her house, and I brought Muffy with me ‘cause I was gonna be gone hours and hours. So at one point, Muffy came up and jumped in her lap and, (Renee: Oh no!) ‘oh, you big fat sausage of a dog!’

Lucy        : Is that what I said?

Sharon     : Yes! She was very airy at the moment, yeah. You said he was your—your guard dog. Or your dyed dog, I think. No— I don’t remember which.

Renee      : She got shocked.

Sharon     : So she’s giving the fans updates on the dog since then.

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : This imaginary dog?

Lucy        : Well, no… we have a dog in New Zealand. (Renee: Lucky?) Maybe that’s who I was… Anyway. Next question!

Sharon     : So how was Julius when Judah was on the way?

Lucy        : Uh, he was pretty happy about it until he realized that this damn thing was here to stay.

Renee      : I know. I can’t wait for that.

Lucy        : It was like, ‘when—are we done with it?’ and it still is like that till today.

Renee      : Still?

Lucy        : ‘Get rid of him!’

Renee      : ‘Can’t believe you brought this in here!’

Lucy        : ‘He’s such a pain!’

Renee      : Wow. I know, I’m waiting for that moment because I think it’s gonna be so funny to hear what he says, you know? ‘Can’t you take it back?’

Lucy        : Yeah! The dog was very jealous, (Renee: Oh.) actually. Yes, the dog! Lucky was very jealous. He was really excited, ‘cause he knew on some level that… that a baby was being born. He could—he totally—and he was pogo-ing up and down, Rob said, um, downstairs, ‘cause he knew he wasn’t allowed upstairs.

Renee      : But you had home birth too (Lucy: I had one home birth…) so he was there.

Lucy        : And, um, when the— the dog was really happy about the baby ‘cause he thought that the baby was now the lowest on the totem pole and when he realized that he still had to get out or get away from the baby and the baby was higher than him (Renee: Oh no!) he was—had his nose very much out of joint.

Renee      : Interesting.

Lucy        : Yeah. The dog was not happy about that.

Renee      : Wow.

Lucy        : He thought he went up a rung.

Renee      : Um, it’s funny, I’ve been looking at home births here. It’s so difficult to have a home birth in America, it’s hilarious.

Sharon     : Were you thinking of home birth?

Renee      : Yeah, I mean, actually I went to this –it’s a very long story—but I ended up looking for an alternative to a hospital. And I found this birthing center and so I’ll probably go there—I mean, we’ll go there. But, um, she’s screening me to see if I’ll be eligible for home birth and if everything goes the way it is, I can. But I, I find it’s interesting to tell people I’m having a home birth because everyone’s worried about it, you know? Family here, friends here, because they’re not used to the idea…

Sharon     : It’s this country, right. Yeah. (Renee: But in New Zealand—) In New Zealand it’s much more common.

Lucy        : Much more common, though, you know, there are legitimate concerns of… I know somebody who lost 2 babies, um, they—they had problems, but I think they lived away out of town. And you would always… you have (Renee: You have to have someone safe near by.) a hospital right near by.

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : If anything deviates from the normal in anyway at all, (Renee: Right.) they take—the doctor would take you there… so if you had any reservations then you might as well just go to the hospital but, um…

Renee      : Yeah. No, she’s correct.

Sharon     : There’s always the pool.

Renee      : I know, I’ve asked her about that because of you too, and um… she’s this phenomenal midwife, she’s been doing it for 30 years, and been doing a study on home births in a birthing pool. And maybe thinking, you know, there’s always these studies… but maybe thinking it’s not as good for the baby as it is for the mother, so… people are—but again, technology is changing.

Lucy        : I didn’t really love it, to be honest. The second time ‘cause I felt cold ‘cause your body’s going up and down, it’s like ‘I hate the water!’ but someone say it’s actually good—better for the baby’s temperature. (Renee: Auckland is freezing!) ‘Cause I couldn’t really tell how cold or hot it was.

Renee      : Really?

Lucy        : ‘Cause your body is sort of fluctuating wild and… but, uh, the first time…

Renee      : You think you’d be used to that after all those pools…

Sharon     : The Xena pools.

Renee      : The mound.

Lucy        : Those freezing pools in middle winter they made us jump into.

Renee      : The fire hoses.

Sharon     : Now… what you’re gonna have is 2 young ones with only about 3 years apart or 2 and a half—somewhere around there which is again—

Renee      : You’re talking to me or Lucy?

Sharon     : Well this is what you gotta raise, so have you given to her any update on what it’s going to be like to have 2 little ones around the same time?

Renee      : I don’t think—Miles would be 4 and a half. I don’t consider him a toddler anymore at all, you know.

Lucy        : Four and a half is pretty big.

Sharon     : How old was Julius when Judah was—

Lucy        : Two and a half.

Renee      : Big difference.

Sharon     : Oh 2 and—so it was much [I’m not sure about this, sorry ;)] ‘Cause I just remember that you only had 2 babies, you know—

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : Yeah. Well Julius is also really, um, Mommy-obsessed. Whereas Judah isn’t. I don’t think… I mean, Julius is unusually…

Renee      : That’s so funny. Wow.

Lucy        : …attached to me. And always was—really, he’s quite sort of high-maintenance. I cannot go out without him having say goodbye 18 times (Renee: Oh. Sweet!) just to Yoga. You know, I’ll come back in 2 hours. But he has to see you out.

Renee      : 18 times?

Sharon     : Whoa…

Lucy        : Well, maybe not (18)… but…

Renee      : Yeah, but you know, subtle attachment to you.

Lucy        : Certainly 10. Certainly 10.

Renee      : Miles is a real daddy’s boy, ‘cause he wants to wrestle, you know? (Lucy: But Ju’s like that too.) He wants to fight and do all these things. And I’m just, like, ‘I can’t pick you up,’ you know? So, the dads, you know, the daddy time is the best. So…

Sharon     : So any moment now he’ll start with the experiments that we just saw on Lucy’s table?

Renee      : I don’t know. I don’t think he’s quite that advanced yet.

Sharon     : What were these experiments that we were just looking at? Can we tell the, uh, what’s growing on your dining table?

Lucy        : Oh, we cut up, um, plastic cups and, um, try to keep them all sterile and we put Agar, this gel… sort of gel (Sharon: to… for growing, really.) stuff that you can grow bacteria in and then we did, um, samples around the house of… we did things that kids like. Like cat hair and boogers and sneeze and pee and all these things that little boys are really interested in? And we grew bacteria and fungus and stuff. And it was a good way to illustrate how—how bugging certain things are. ‘Why mommy doesn’t want you pissing in the waste-paper basket.’ Honestly…

Renee      : Oh my God!

Lucy        : ‘Why did the housekeeper leave that basket of water there?’

Renee      : Oh, you’re kidding!

Lucy        : And I’m going, uh… the little boys have used it as a urinal.

Renee      : Oh, my God!

Lucy        : They just, like, store it there.

Renee      : Oh, my God! That’s hilarious.

Lucy        : They’re awful! And they literally have pissing contest.

Renee      : Do you think it’s because of the two of them? (Lucy: Oh they’re just awful.) And they come up with these ideas?

Lucy        : They’re just awful.

Renee      : Because some—you know, Miles’ worst is that maybe he doesn’t wash his hands, you know? ‘You gotta wash your hand.’ You know? It’s not so bad.

Lucy        : Judah is SO good about the hand-washing. Some people just are and some people… ‘I don’t care.’

Renee      : That’s hilarious.

Sharon     : Now, Lucy didn’t get to see you in your photo-op outfit. Can you tell her what you were wearing?

Renee      : Yeah, the Harmonia? Remember the wings with the little silver angel one, yeah?

Lucy        : Yeah!

Renee      : well it’s the only thing that was gonna fit, and I wanted—I like to do the costumes ‘cause I think it’s… you know, people are there (Lucy: Yeah.) and spent a lot of money and I just—make something fun.

Lucy        : Give a little value. Yeah, yeah.

Renee      : Well, you know, make it a lot of fun for all of us. And, um, (Sharon: Yeah, you look like you were…) and I have so much more fun because I tried it once without a costume… I don’t know, it’s a little too serious.

Lucy        : Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon     : So she had her wings—complete with wings…

Renee      : Oh, it’s so much fun!

Sharon     : And you seemed to be encouraging it… people to touch your tummy, like, even me… I mean, I was just kinda looking at it, you say, ‘here, go ahead, put your hand on it. Put your hand on it,’ and I was like…

Renee      : No, no. I don’t encourage it, but I don’t—

Lucy        : So weird when people, like, in Shopping Malls are really attracted to you (Renee: Oh, to you? Strangers?)

Sharon     : Strangers?

Lucy        : Strangers can, ‘oh, can I touch it?’ ‘No.’

Renee      : That has never happened to me. No.

Lucy        : ‘No way.’

Sharon     : I mean, we were in the hot tub together and you were about three months… three weeks away from, you know, being born down—giving birth down in New Zealand. And, um, I’m sitting acro—even then I would never attempt to…

Lucy        : Right. Why do women want to touch?

Renee      : I did ask. I said you could, that’s right. (Sharon: Yeah.) People were asking and… and no one really has except for my boyfriend, you know, doing that. But I thought, ‘well, you know… give it a—give it a go.’ (Lucy: Yeah but that’s not her…) and I tried to feel it out and I didn’t mind so… not many people were asking.

Sharon     : And they were awesome. And they were ladies and they were all very gentle.

Renee      : Yeah. And everyone was so sweet about it.

Sharon     : It was delight—it was a delightful addition.

Renee      : Yeah.

Sharon     : Alright. Um, you both been traveling to places that erratically different from the homes you’re used to living in… countries you’re used to living in. Uh, Renee you went to Israel which was a country of war.

Renee      : Right. I talked to you after that. You have been there before.

Lucy        : I thought you were going.

Renee      : Oh, no. I…

Lucy        : Oh you just come back?

Renee      : I just come back, yeah.

Lucy        : It’s amazing.

Renee      : Yeah. But—I’m sorry.

Sharon     : Well that’s it. How did—how was—how did it affect you? How did you feel being in a country where… did you feel not safe?

Renee      : Not at all. I think the entire time I felt more safe than I have ever thought I would be. (Lucy: Really? What amazes you?) Especially during the Gaza pullout, you know? It’s amazing.

Lucy        : You go, ‘wow the world’s really much bigger place than you think.’ When you’re sitting here watching CNN you think, ‘oh the whole Israel can be blown up smithereens in it,’ and you go there and it’s (Renee: It’s isolated.) vast landscapes, and there’s people all over the place, and, um…

Renee      : Yeah, that part was secluded and isolated and… we were watching on the news because we were just staying in a little, sweet neighborhood, you know? Where, uh, my neighbor’s family were living. So… but it was interesting.

Sharon     : There was a little activity in the mall.

Renee      : What’s that?

Sharon     : There was a little activity in the mall.

Renee      : Oh yeah.

Sharon     : It was close enough to…

Lucy        : There’s guns, I mean, everywhere. Everybody’s got, uh… [I couldn’t hear what she said, sorry]

Sharon     : a mall that a missile landed.

Renee      : Well I mean, by going into a regular mall, huh, “regular mall”, compared to the one that the missile was hit… but the, um, going to a regular mall they were, uh, they were looking at the cars with the little mirrors, you know? And, yeah, they had the M-16s. and then you go in, you go through a screening door to go in just to a shop. It’s a whole different lifestyle. But I walked away thinking, ‘how naïve we all are in America.’ Really. Interesting. (Sharon: That we just live and not think about it.) But… not to be—not to go on about that…

Sharon     : Well I just wanted to touch the, uh, this are the really 2 serious subjects because you just came back from Bangladesh in that World Vision Documentary just aired. And, uh, that seemed… again, we looked, we know poverty exists, we see it on television, but actually being there is something not a whole lot of people experience.

Lucy        : Not a lot of people go to Bangladesh, that’s for sure. I think that’s why I was invited..

Sharon     : And see families like Bina’s family.

Lucy        : Yeah. There’s so much that you didn’t see that was framed out because of economy of, you know, the subject. But there was—women holding these babies, who are so seriously deformed, you cannot believe that nobody’s done anything about it. But, um, they’ve—there was this one tiny little boy in the lady’s arms, and he had like a what I called ‘a double-yolker eye’. He had, like, two eyeballs –one on top of the other- so he couldn’t close his eyelid because there was yet another, sort of, eyeball sticking out. There is so much poison in the earth, um, from us. It’s naturally occurring in any place that floods a lot. Lots of heavy metals, like, Katrina’s got this wall up in Louisiana burns up a lot of heavy metal from a, um, underneath the ground. And, they’ve had the worst case of mass poisoning on—in recorded history. Like, millions of people have so much arsenic in them. They’re actually developing some kind of immunity to a lot of things, but you know arsenium cause terrible, terrible, deformities whatever the hell is going on in their environment. And nobody’s doing anything about this. Even if they could, the people are, like, you get the sense of… everybody’s job is just to get through the next 12 hours. So every child has a job, whether they’re paid for in the brickyards or not, everybody has a job. You’ve got to be, if you have a cow, you better be feeding that cow or you’re looking for grasses to feed your family. That’s as salad as just what you can find on the ground. Um, somebody’s gotta go catch a fish. Everybody’s working all the time, just to get through the next 24 hours. And, um, so for a mother or somebody to be have to be looking after a child who’s deformed, or has no hope of ever contributing to the family is like—is a huge waste of resources (Sharon: Right.) for the survival of that family, so you get—I got the feeling like it was just, ‘Please, Allah,’ you know, ‘when Allah wills it, take this child. Because there’s no life for the kid, there’s no life for us.’ (Sharon: ‘There’s nothing we can do.’) Yeah, ‘there’s nothing anyone can do for us.’ Which isn’t exactly true, because those schemes by the NGOs like World Vision—I’ve seen them, they do work quite amazing and very empowering but, um, but they do not have a mindset where the universe will hold them up. There’s no trust between… there’s no understanding across a huge community because there’s no social welfare; there’s no sense of entitlement. You’re entitled to nothing but what’s right in front of you.

Sharon     : So different.

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : You were recently just in New Orleans again, right?

Lucy        : Yeah, we’re there for Thanksgiving, and um, yeah... it’s a big old…

Sharon     : Thanksgiving was, uh, November. November, December, January, February, we’re in February. It’s 4 months later. They still haven’t touched a twig there.

Renee      : Well that’s the thing. I mean, I, uh… obviously the Red Cross is disappointing everyone. What about Habitat for Humanity? Are they helping?

Lucy        : They’re going down there, yeah.

Renee      : They are?

Lucy        : We had some people at the convention who were going down there. Um, part of the problem I think is those heavy metals—those crazy levels of, um, arsenic, ____ [something chemical], I can’t even – I can’t list what’s there, but it’s now lying as a thick sort of dust on everything. So stirring it up is a problem. It’s part of it.

Sharon     : So it’s not as if the house just fell down and you could come and build it up. It’s the land that they’re building out of. (Lucy: Everything’s poisoned.) Not all the debris that’s there, it’s actually finding a place to build it. And do you still own that land? And is the land gonna be flooded? I mean, this is like a Catch-22.

Lucy        : Yeah, that’s a—

Renee      : We’re still trying to figure out, but in the meantime the families are still there.

Lucy        : They are, (Renee: See, that can’t be right.) but our house guest, Donna, she’s homeless from New Orleans. And, um, they got Mardi Gras coming up, and… they’re trying to make a really big party out of it and all the floats are showing up this year. But the residents were—the former residents who are now living in and around, um, like Baton Rouge and all over… all over the country actually, are going, ‘so what? We still don’t have houses.

Renee      : Yeah, really. That’s to be celebrated. (Lucy: Yeah, it’s tougher…) It seems like the, uh, the businesses, the bigger businesses –I don’t know what I’m talking about – but the bigger businesses would be benefiting from Jazz Festival and Mardi Gras as opposed to the people who wants to really make it.

Lucy        : Right. Well that’s why everybody’s been kicked out of the hotels (Renee: Right.) to make money to for the paying (Renee: Yeah.) to bring in…

Renee      : Oh, okay. So they actually are (Sharon: To support the restaurants)… people leave the hotels…

Lucy        : People having to leave, yeah.

Renee      : Oh, my God.

Sharon     : Yeah.

Renee      : Oh, it’s hard.

Lucy        : And you can see why. They want—they want some revenue, for God’s sake. (Renee: Sure.) You get that as well!

Renee      : Yeah. Exactly.

Lucy        : But, uh, at a huge cost.

Renee      : That’s what I was wondering, you know, what organizations are truly out there helping. And they’re having difficulties as well. Habitat for Humanities’ having a hard time if they have to clean the sludge first before they came...

Sharon     : You know, like, this—this person Lily Duke that we found. I think the help was going on for survival. And I think that they can’t quite have—they don’t have—there’s no plan for rebuilding. So the help that’s going on is from Habitat, or from people cleaning out houses and, uh, that is really day-to-day survival that (Renee: It’s kinda like Bangladesh, didn’t it?) groups are helping, like this lady lives—

Lucy        : It’s so similar. I saw a lot of, um, similarities. And it’s just about the human conditions. It’s about how human—human behavior—how human’s behave under incredible stress.

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : And, uh, it’s like every man for himself. And, um…

Sharon     : I would think that with those, uh, community development areas, which was what World Vision sets up, like say, you don’t have the money—they don’t give the money to that child, they give it to a community development area. Which then does things for the village in terms of the water. That’s kind of what is needing to be going on in New Orleans right now until somebody can figure out how to rebuild this city and that’s a governing thing.

Lucy        : Oh, that’s really interesting. Yeah, you’re right. What happens in the case of World Vision is that a, um, a community—the leaders of a community have to come and say, ‘please help us. We’re motivated, we will need to do this, this, and this. Help us help ourselves.’ That’s what– they don’t come in and just endow you money and say, ‘there you go, spend it,’ or, ‘we’ll do it for you.’ Because that doesn’t, um, give them any sense of ownership or pride over whatever the project is.

Sharon     : And responsibility too.

Lucy        : And sense of responsibility. That’s right. It doesn’t educate people in how to help themselves. How to build a well and maintain it and if they put in their own blood, sweat, and tears into a project, they will protect their road, they will (Renee: Sure.), um, they will help… keeps it cleaner.

Sharon     : ‘We want a school, we’ll build it. We’ve got teachers, we’ve got students.’ Then World Vision can give them money to make physical things a reality.

Lucy        : That’s right. But they have to put in all the care.

Renee      : Yeah. Hm, it’s interesting.

Sharon     : Speaking of children, you had your second child, uh, right after Xena ended. And I wonder if there was any conflict within you between having another child and setting off on the career after Xena? Did you have to do any balancing in your life at that point about…

Lucy        : Well, career just went away. That’s what happens when you have a kid. Your career vanishes. And you gotta be okay with that and know that you still exist even though you’re not in magazines or on television. Yeah. It forces you to, um, be a human being first and foremost instead of an actress. Good thing.

Renee      : I’m laughing ‘cause I… I’m trying to balance Miles, birth classes, and then finishing my film. And it’s insane, it’s crazy. But you know, I wanna finish my film before the baby comes (Lucy: Right.) ‘cause I know, ‘forget it,’ I’m definitely taking… (Lucy: Right. After.) What I’ve been considering my work time, taking all that off, you know? So… but it’s really interesting, though. But, yeah. Your… your values’ change.

Sharon     : ‘Cause you said at the convention that the pregnancy was a bit of a surprise and you’d wondered how having another child, uh, was gonna fit into your life when you had so many plans about movie-making. Um, so you… you consciously had a thing. ‘shall I have this child? shall I not?’ And you also mentioned that the trip to Israel played a part in your decision.

Renee      : Well I—yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t say, ‘shall I have this child or should I not,’ but, um, but how do I fit it in with what I had goals for doing. Um, I don’t know. Um… how do Israel fit in? Let’s—it’s such a personal, personal, journey that, um, it’s like, uh…

Lucy        : It’s so personal, in fact I don’t wanna know about it.

Renee      : I don’t wanna talk about it.

Sharon     : That’s a perfectly legitimate answer.

Renee      : Yeah.

Sharon     : I never know.

Renee      : Yeah. No…

Lucy        : You just gotta breathe, man… and stop trying to control the outcome of everything. And…

Renee      : God, yeah. It was such a surprise. Yeah.

Lucy        : Yeah, sometimes we just…. do not plan a life.

Renee      : I know!

Lucy        : And they’re just meant to happen. This child could never happen except in that moment.

Renee      : It’s such a gift. It’s been amazing because it was such a journey for my self, for my boyfriend, for Miles, for Steve, for all of us. Because we are like this sort of interesting family unit that’s developing. And it’s just made everyone sort of grow in a whole new way. And, so when you first hear you’re pregnant you think, ‘oh my God!’ And then I realized it’s been an incredible journey, so…

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : But Israel, the thing about Israel is that it’s such a beautiful, spiritual place that you realize—you look outside of your own situation into other people’s turmoil and war and survival and… and then looking up to God because of it to look for, uh, help and assistance and guidance, that that just sort of put me on the right path. But to go, ‘okay. you know, take it in stride and breathe every day,’ and I’m so incredibly blessed, you know? I’m… (Lucy: So blessed.) nothing to worry about. I’m so incredibly blessed. And as long as I just keep… you know, thankful… then it all seems to work out. Much better than I ever had anticipated, you know?

Lucy        : That’s right. You cannot—you can’t force, like, the glory of life to happen. It ju—it happens when you just give over.

Renee      : Yeah. Let go. Yeah, yeah. I guess, when you talk about control, it’s funny ‘cause I—with your career you wanna have ideas of stepping stones and to be where you gonna be in a certain time, especially with planning movies and things, you know? There are stages of development. But, um, yeah… you learned to let all that go.

Sharon     : You know, you just said, ‘turn it over,’ and there’s a country song that’s out that’s popular now. I think the phrase is, um, ‘Jesus Take The Wheel’ or something like that. And.. and you’ve been mentioning God a fair amount recently…

Lucy        : Yeah, I kinda heard you—I’ve never heard you do that before. You’re becoming a Godbotherer.

Renee      : Well, the thing is, it’s interesting. I’ve been looking back on the whole Godbotherer…

Sharon     : ‘I’m bothering you, God.’

Lucy        : It’s a real Kiwi saying..

Renee      : Well, it’s funny because New Zealand had a strong influence on me and my spirituality, which is funny. But not in the way that you would think, because coming up from the South… it’s all about Jesus, you know, and everything. And, uh, Christianity is very strong, I was sort of fortunate, I think, that my mother didn’t push that on me so I was not, um, thinking that the only way I would be a good person is if I was saved by Christ, you know? So I grew up knowing that’s not exactly the truth, and my Jewish friends are just as wonderful as my Christian friends. So… but then, going to New Zealand, I didn’t find myself that there’s a strong sense of Christianity like there is in the South. Do you know what I mean?

Lucy        : Nowhere has it quite like in the South.

Renee      : Yeah, well, it was interesting, though. But it was funny, so I found that I stood more towards believing that you create your own fate, that you drive your own destiny. And I sort of had found it conflicting with the idea that God handles it all. Which is how I was sort of raised. So I found throughout the 6 years I—I pulled probably more away from God. And then coming back to America, going through so much that I’ve been—so many changes I’ve been going through the last few years, that it’s—you know, back to grassroots. It’s like you’re going, you know, ‘you gotta help me here.’ And it’s God, you know, and… Yeah, so—I think it’s sort of been interesting for me to come back around.

Sharon     : Does a higher power come in handy? Is that any relationship to the spirituality or the philosophy of Yoga that you been talking to me about?

Renee      : Philosophy of Yoga?

Lucy        : I’ve been doing a Philosophy course just to see wh—because it was—it’s one of the oldest, um, philosophical schools of thought. So I just wanted to see where it, you know, where some of the origins of human belief first started. Um, but I don’t—

Renee      : Not religious belief so much. It’s not that slant?

Lucy        : Well it’s—it doesn’t really have a dogma attached. It’s like, um, this really great Yoga teacher said the other day, ‘ethics are for the confused.’

Renee      : Wow.

Lucy        : Because people—(Sharon: Can you explain that please?)

Renee      : That’s funny.

Lucy        : A person who’s not confused has no need of ethics. And it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good person, but, like, incredibly evil people don’t need ethics because they’re not confused. They’re gonna do… (Renee: Right.) whatever they do, good or evil effect, they’re gonna do what they do. They’re not confused. And same with very holy people, they don’t need a list of, uh, rules to go by because they have an internal moral compass, which says, ‘oh, this is wrong. This is right.’ (Renee: Right.) You just know on the inside. And, um, the, um, thinking is that God… you do believe in God, but we don’t think of it as, um, this big mean old guy who sits up there zapping homosexuals and Jews. Because God is way beyond form. Is beyond form. These are all forms and attachments and when you realize that form and time—we know this from mathematics that time doesn’t really exist, and form doesn’t really exist because even when you get down to atomic particles, what’s an atom? It’s mostly space. (Sharon: Space.) Mostly space. None of this really exists, and they’ve been saying this for 4,000 years in the Vedas and everything. Um, so only now is Western philosophy coming back to that point of realizing that the only thing common here is, um, it’s like stuff between the atoms. Is what we all are. We’re all made of that stuff. We all are it right now, and, um, therefore we are all part of this ‘God’.

Renee      : Right. No, I believe it, actually. Yeah.

Lucy        : But I think our ego, yeah, our egos have gotten separated from the feeling—this feeling of unity.

Renee      : Well I think when I say ‘God’ I mean I am thinking of the Universal God. I’m not looking into, uh, certain religions as, you know, being more righteous over the other. You know? It is definitely about all being connected. I started reading this book called ‘The God Code’ and it talks about that. I’m just starting it, but yeah…

Lucy        : I heard about that one.

Renee      : I don’t know, I have to let you—I have to look in the, um, but that’s the whole idea.

Sharon     : Yeah. Somebody’s keeping an eye on us and it’s kind of also each other. Keeping an eye on each other.

Lucy        : What does that mean?

Renee      : But we’re not.

Sharon     : People think about God looking out for each other but with—I’m sort of extrapolating from something that you just said that, is that  if we’re all part of this consciousness, we’re actually keeping an eye on each other.

Lucy        : Yeah, that’s really true. It stops you getting mad at people ‘cause you go, ‘well he’s just another extension of me (Renee: Yes.) or the same thing that I am.’

Renee      : Yeah. Definitely.

Sharon     : ‘That’s my fault over there. Whoops!’

Lucy        : Yeah, yeah!

Sharon     : Yeah. ‘Can’t be mad at them, that’s in me!’ Yeah, interesting. Now seeing as you had your curly locks on last night, when you went to the Grammy party, um—I’ll segway into the Grammy party.. but you, since we’ve done this last coffee talk, since last year, you’ve been doing a fair amount of singing. So how was it being a Rock God—we gotta show Renee the tape of The Factory appearance. How was it being a Rock God up on stage at The Factory?

Lucy        : Much more fun on the inside than it, um, like, I saw it on the video the next day or whenever you brought it over. And I was, like, ‘urgh. I thought it was better than that.’ It felt more better than that!

Renee      : Oh no! I heard you had a great time!

Sharon     : The videos don’t really capture it because it—in person it was—our filming it out was a little off. If you’d actually—if the camera’d actually been back farther so you could feel the full energy.  It’s almost like it was so tight, we were cutting off the energy, because actually in the room, my God! It was unbelievable. It was electrifying. Your husband was standing there grinning till he’s…

Lucy        : Was he? Aww. It was really fun.

Sharon     : He was just…

Lucy        : It was really really fun.

Renee      : Are you going to do another one? Have you thought about it?

Lucy        : Yeah, I’d do—I’d do another one. It takes a lot of, um, it takes a lot of energy and planning ahead of time, like, they want you to commit to these things a long way (Renee: Sure.) yet—and I’m uncomfortable doing that, ‘cause I know that people are gonna fly in from different states (Renee: Yes.) and everything. And I don’t wanna say yes and have them spend money on tickets and then pull out. Weighs really— weighs on me. So, um, often I can’t commit early enough for the business who wants to ask.

Sharon     : Is that character that we saw on stage, is that you or is that you being a character? Well, because it’s so totally different—something from someone sitting there. But you often wonder…

Lucy        : You know what? That night I think I wa—I, it was a little bit of a, um, char—it was much more egotist—much more arrogant than I—sure, I mean, you guys know me now.

Renee      : I wanna see this!

Lucy        : But, but, like, I was, yeah. No it was quite sort of strutting and being a little bit rude and whatever, you know? Because there’s no—you can’t go on stage and be mousy. I’ve done that before and who gives a damn? No. Give the people a show, for God’s sakes. So… go on and act.

Renee      : Did you see Madonna last night?

Lucy        : No.

Renee      : Oh, she looked amazing!

Lucy        : I’ve seen photos.

Sharon     : 47! Oh my God!

Renee      : Yeah! Totally strutting herself, you know?

Sharon     : That’s inspiring.

Renee      : It was great! She’s fantastic, yeah.

Sharon     : How about Mick Jagger at the Superbowl? 61!

Renee      : Yeah.

Sharon     : Oh, my God! But you know, I mean you were dropping to your knees, and you were just throwing her (Renee: You do it?) head around. Yes! She falls down on her knees!

Lucy        : That was Eric Vetro. Eric Vetro was choreographing it.

Renee      : Oh my God, I love it!

Sharon     : Oh man!

Renee      : That’s hilarious. I would love to see that!

Sharon     : Anybo—

Renee      : I love it and, um, oh I just spent some time with Eddie just recently and he said, anytime…

Lucy        : Eddie? Oh!

Renee      : Yeah. If you want it still, he put the offer out…

Lucy        : Oh, I love that! I love—you know what?

Renee      : He offered for Lucy to come down to Austin and he’ll throw a band together for you.

Lucy        : Give him my love. Give him my love. Tell him I would love—I’ve never forgot—I’ve known that—

Renee      : Yeah. He just wanted me to remind you. He’s been spending a lot of time with, uh, Cyril Neville? From the Neville family? (Lucy: Oh, Neville ___? Nice.) And he’s, um, he’d be available, you know, anytime.

Lucy        : Oh my God. Can you imagine it? We go down to Austin?

Renee      : Yeah!

Lucy        : Aaahh that’ll be fun, eh?

Renee      : I know! Yeah! I’m gonna try to, eventually, when I have a screening of my Diamonds and Guns. So… I’m looking… (Lucy: Or maybe we’ll do that, yeah?) Yeah. It’ll be fun!

Sharon     : Oh, wow! How about a duo thing? Have a screening of the movie and a concert?

Renee      : But I don’t think it’s the kind of thing that you’d have to plan too far ahead of, you know? So you’ve got the band, and just rehearse with them, you know?

Lucy        : Right, ‘cause they’re all great musicians, right.

Renee      : Yeah. They’re used to throwing it together…

Lucy        : And we could do the song we did at the (Sharon: Yeah.) con. I wrote a lot of songs.

Sharon     : Uh-Oh. Does that mean I gotta get (Lucy: Let’s do that!). I saw all my calluses. (Renee: So I’ll put you and Eddie together.) Do I have to make a little guest appearance here?

Lucy        : Sharon *air guitars*

Renee      : I know, I wanna see that too.

Sharon     : I have been playing every night since then. I’m back to playing…

Lucy        : Well, it’s good, ‘cause they’ve got Cyril Neville, Sharon. So… you might get edged out.

Sharon     : I might. Unless he doesn’t play guitar.

Renee      : I don’t know.

Sharon     : That’s alright, I will stand aside for real musicians.

Renee      : It’ll be fun! It’ll be a fun party.

Sharon     : Oh, God, we were a couple—

Lucy        : Get practicing!

Sharon     : Um, another thing—brave thing that was done at the convention is you were showing your first nude self-portraits.

Renee      : Yeah.

Sharon     : Which Lucy hasn’t seen yet either.

Lucy        : I like your painting, though. They’re really good.

Renee      : Which one did you see?

Lucy        : All—I’ve seen your painting at your house. I love your paintings.

Renee      : Oh, the face one?

Sharon     : Oh, yeah. Right.

Renee      : Right. (Sharon: Right. Yeah.) It’s my first one.

Lucy        : And more. Landscape... you did?

Renee      : Landscape…

Lucy        : You remember? Kind of dark.

Sharon     : Probably… I wonder the one with the dog was, uh, was that the one with the dog and the moon?

Lucy        : it was howling, yep.

Renee      : Oh, that one, I know. Okay, okay. Thank you, thank you.

Sharon     : That was done at the time, when she was there, yeah.

Renee      : Anyway, yeah, I, uh, I’ve been…

Sharon     : How was—

Renee      : …trying to branch out of doing the Xena ones to do—‘cause I wanted to do something different. So I started looking at the nudes. I wanted to do nudes for a while, I thought, ‘well, hey!’ I’m still fascinated with the growing body, so I—

Lucy        : Great.

Renee      : That’s hilarious. ‘Cause I, you know, I have to have the right atmosphere to start painting. I’ve had a bit of music on, no distractions, clean house, and then… and then just go with it. And it end up being quite detail so far. The breasts, you know…

Sharon     : How was it to show an audience this? You kept saying, ‘oh, I’m embarrassed,’ and you would giggle.

Renee      : You know, it’s funny, I love it. But, um, I get embarrassed when other people are embarrassed, too. And, um, it’s interesting ‘cause Michael Hurst was backstage before. he looked at it and he just kinda, like, looked away. Michael Hurst! You know? Who—you don’t ever think to be modest but anything.

Lucy        : I think he always had a bit of crush on you.

Renee      : That is…

Sharon     : Uh-oh. That comes out!

Renee      : That is—you’re just hilarious. Oh God. Talk about pulling something out of nowhere.

Lucy        : But I always—I mean, I could always pick—there are people who are Xena fans, and there are people who are Gabrielle or Renee fans, you know? And, um, (Renee: Michael Hurst! You’re just—) you can tell. I just…

Renee      : That is the craziest thing I’ve ever, ever, heard. Just because we like to talk about Shakespeare together, right?

Lucy        : Oh, no, I think _____ [couldn’t hear what she said]

Sharon     : Closer with_____ [not sure about this too]

Renee      : You are hilarious. Well anyway, there was a—yeah. There’s a lot of information there. So then I… I get a little giddy.

Lucy        : That’s funny.

Renee      : It’s getting hot in here.

Sharon     : We’re making her blush. Or whatever, you tell me.

Renee      : Yeah.

Sharon     : You wrote something recently. Uh, that seemed to—seems a sort of straddle of what we’ve been discussing. You’re new theme is that you’re trying, uh, trying out to do things that you’re not totally comfortable with, the things you wanted to experiment like painting, like singing. You wrote a line on a card, ‘she constantly walked the line between failure and fabulousness.’

Renee      : I love that! I read that. You said—

Lucy        : I guess that’s how I just felt that day. Um, ‘cause there’s a time when you do anything that’s a little bit scary where you feel like, ‘oh I can totally freak out by now or I can just get out there and be huge.’ You—(Renee: Yeah.) To go out there and just be half-assed is not really an option. It’s a complete failure, or a complete success in a way – in your own eyes, I think. Other people’s eyes, nothing you can do about it. But, in your own eyes, you know, I don’t—uh, and I often feel that when I do something scary.

Renee      : Do you think that before you’re going to do something? Little bit?

Lucy        : No, I just recognize that feeling of instability (Renee: Oh, okay. You tell me.) inside and you go, ‘oh I’m on a tight rope.’

Renee      : Yeah. I liken it jumping. I usually just jump. I don’t think about it too much, which is so funny. Because you think I would, right?

Sharon     : Yeah.

Renee      : Because usually you’re the one who does stuff, you know? But I don’t—I probably should think of the failure a little bit more, maybe I would—no, I’m joking. But, um, like singing with you ‘Last Dance’ I mean, what was I thinking? You know? Singing with you at any point. I was like, ‘sure!’ you know…

Lucy        : Oh, my God! Oh, that’s how I feel about it. That’s, like (Renee: That is hilarious.), what on earth were we thinking. But we were just—you know what? That was an act of generosity. You know, it was just about, ‘let’s do something goofy so that…’

Renee      : Oh, yeah.

Lucy        : ‘… these people who have really supported us all these years, um, know that we appreciate them in return.’

Renee      : You think it’s generosity, I’m just having—I mean, well I’m along for the ride, you know?

Sharon     : Where Lucy goes, I’m following?

Renee      : Sure! It sounds like fun. Something I would never choose to do normally, yeah. (Lucy: What were we thinking?) Jump out of the cake in a bikini, you know.

Lucy        : Oh, my God!

Renee      : That is the fu—I’ll never forget that. Oh my God, with your legs coming out and the Afro. It’s too much.

Lucy        : Oh my God! (Sharon: You crouched underneath that stuff with the cake?) What were we thinking?!?!

Renee      : I know! It was—I saw the tape.

Lucy        : We were stuck out there for hours.

Renee      : That’s so funny. Those are—you know, those are just the priceless moment that you just—

Lucy        : Yeah. Actually, that is the good stuff in life. When we were 80, we’ll look back and go, ‘we did some cool stupid stuff.’ And… and though it…

Renee      : Still, that was amazing. We obviously did it on the show, but still, you know?

Sharon     : In real life…

Lucy        : Yeah, you gotta build some good memories when you’re 80. Go build a good scrapbook, man. So, did you build a good memory at 40 Deuce? Do you know what 40 Deuce is?

Renee      : I sure do. What did you do? You danced?

Sharon     : She went!

Lucy        : I just went…

Renee      : But did you dance?

Lucy        : No, no. They did ask me to dance when… yeah.

Renee      : That’s when I went with, I’m with you before. (Lucy: Yeah, yeah. Right.) That’s why I come and figured—that’s right.

Sharon     : Oh, you’ve been there before? The two of you went?

Lucy        : We went back recently with Tim and Alison Odmundson (Renee: Oh, good.) and some kids who are new in town from, um, that I met in New Orleans. And, um, took them out for a kind of a good free, you know, exciting time. And, um….

Renee      : It’s a great club.

Lucy        : It’s a really great, club.

Renee      : So what happened? Come on…

Lucy        : Nothing happened. Well you know what’s happening now…

Renee      : The cabaret. If you don’t know, those enjoy_____ [something]

Lucy        : It’s a burlesque cabaret. Great dancers do a couple of dances.

Renee      : Oh, phenomenal dancers, though. I mean—

Lucy        : But in between, they got all these no—the public get up on stage and dance. And it’s all these women, it’s like some hideous meat market. It was re—it was—and they were kind of a great floor show in their own way but it was… it was really trashy.

Renee      : That’s hilarious.

Lucy        : And they’re all like, holding on to the beads and doing *imitates the dance*

Renee      : Oh, God. It’s always ‘pole-dancing classes (Lucy: Yeah.) for fitness,’ right? Everyone thinks that they’re a burlesque dancer now.

Lucy        : Yeah, everybody’s getting off on being on the same stage as the dancers.

Renee      : Wow. But these girls, I mean, phenomenal dan— (Lucy: Those dancers are good.) I can’t believe the dancers. They are obviously classically trained, because there’s nothing about what they did that is easy to do, you know? It’s that phenomenal, it’s funny. So did you get—you didn’t get up, huh?

Lucy        : No, I was restraining myself.

Sharon     : Or Alison and Tim and they all just…

Lucy        : It wasn’t tacky enough for me, Renee.

Renee      : Oh, right, right. Maybe you need that afro—(Lucy: And you know, Tim and Alison…) But if we give you a wig, than you would’ve been up for a while.

Lucy        : Yeah. Oohhh. Low blow. Tim tried to take a photo of me in the dark, and he has… (Renee: No, it’s true. ‘cause you would’ve been like, ‘I’m incognito. No one recognize me.’) Can I tell a story? I’m mad now.

Renee      : No, I know it does.

Lucy        : Tim spilled wax all over me. That’s all. He tried to take a photo by candle light, and I didn’t know, and I was being a goof ball like this and knocked it and he spilled wax all down this top, this skirt and down the—down my boots, which had sort of brown lace—it was the stuff—the ones I brought, um, down on you, actually, at The Factory. And just, like, trashed my whole outfit. And, um, it was actually alright, ‘cause I didn’t really like that top very much, actually. (Renee: Well it’s a good thing, right?) When that’s ruined, I was like, ‘it’s okay, Tim.’ That’ll make a good story—That was the night before…

Renee      : Yes, he put wax on you, my God.

Lucy        : Tim covered me in wax.

Sharon     : You talked about going back to—I’m rummaging—I wonder if this is at the convention. You talked about going back to Taylor High School to graduate but you didn’t fit in anymore there with those people.

Renee      : Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, it’s a little suburban, very white-collared neighborhood, you know, in Texas. And then I went to this Performing Arts high school where, you know, people are gay, people are, uh, very eccentric, um, very reflective or soulful, and, uh, artistic. And you have people that are just being so unique and true to themselves. And then I tried to go back to my neighborhood place where everyone was just trying to fit in with each other and I just didn’t understand it anymore. So, I didn’t fit in, you know, I was the wacky weird one. But before, I was part of the, you know, the conforming group, you know? I was a little off, I wasn’t, you know, doing the cheerleading thing. I was still in theater, but… but even then… it was very different going to see such great expressions of character and then going back to…

Lucy        : Conformity.

Renee      : Conformity. Yeah. It was disappointing. Surprisingly disappointing. I was 17. 16-17. So… I realized I had changed. (Sharon: Come out of it. Come out of it.) It’s good. It’s all good. It’s such a great… such a great school.

Sharon     : And you just went to a party last night— Actually, you’ve been in 2 parties in 2 nights.

Lucy        : Yes. Julius says I’m never allowed out again.

Sharon     : Oh, really?

Lucy        : Yeah.

Sharon     : First you went to the Teri Hatcher—Ladies Home Journal. We gotta teach her the difference of Ladies Home Journal and Good Housekeeping.

Lucy        : Oh, did I get busted for that?

Sharon     : Well everyone noticed it. They could see the sign on the wall behind the photos.

Lucy        : What do you mean everybody noticed? Was it on the—was I…

Sharon     : Well we posted Good Housekeeping and then when the pictures came out it says Ladies Home Journal.

Lucy        : I know, I could tell—the worst thing is that I said it to the editor. I thanked Good Housekeeping for having me there. ‘Cause I didn’t see it behind me, I was looking the other way!

Renee      : Why didn’t they just say something?

Sharon     : Well they probably changed it…

Lucy        : They probably thought, ‘what she said?’ because they can’t believe that anybody could be as dense as I am; regarding who’s who and what’s what.

Sharon     : Renee?

Renee      : I think, but I mean, I wouldn’t know either. So… I just—you would assume the editor would correct you, you know? They—

Lucy        : No. I think they’re too embarrassed and too bewildered.

Renee      : Oh, okay. So tell me, what was this? (Sharon: Yeah, what type of party was this?) It was a tabloid party?

Lucy        : It was this… (Sharon: Funny winning. Teri Hatcher.) It was, uh, ‘Women That We Love’ for, um, Ladies Home Journal. And, um, Teri Hatcher was being honored and she refused to be photographed with me.

Sharon     : No! Really?

Lucy        : Repeatedly.

Renee      : Really?

Lucy        : Yeah. (Renee: So what did she do?) So there was one of me and the editor. It’s—she’s just pretending (Renee: She was sort of like *hides face*) she doesn’t hear the request. Yeah, she just does that. It’s not personal, though. She just—she’s just, like, ‘don’t put me, uh, photograph with other women.’ I’m guessing.

Sharon     : For the bitter competition.

Lucy        : I’m guessing. I don’t know. That’s your words. That’s your words, not mine.

Renee      : I don’t—but I wanna—now I wanna hear the details. So how does that work? So obviously you have all those things, people are just trying to photo, ‘everyone get together,’ photograph, (Lucy: ‘Cause the photograph is…) does she turn around? Does she leave? I mean, what does she…

Lucy        : She just pretends she doesn’t hear. She doesn’t—exactly what you did before, walks the other way.

Renee      : Wow. Oh my God! You remember— I heard a bit about you talking…

Lucy        : I thought, ‘wow, that was totally flattering!’

Renee      : Yeah! Well, I guess. I don’t know, it’s kinda odd. But, I mean, um, you were—I heard you were talking about getting freezed out by people on TV shows? That was news to me, I didn’t know that you’d ever felt that before. That’s kinda that same situation, isn’t it?

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : Is it ‘freezed out’, is it right? You’d been on, like, people that worked so well. I mean, there’s something…?

Lucy        : You know, it’s not that they go out of their way to—oh, no. that did happened to me once. Wouldn’t say who it was but it was on, uh, it was very disappointing, actually, on SNL. Uh, I won’t say exactly who it was, but there were 2 people on that that went out of their way to do exclude. Yeah.

Renee      : Now I’m not surprised ‘cause I saw a Special on SNL and I, uh, I realized how competitive it is. (Lucy: And see, I didn’t know either) How hard they work to get in the skits. I guess, you know—

Lucy        : Yeah, that’s right. And if… yeah.

Renee      : That’s funny. You think—

Lucy        : Don’t even guess. There were only 2 and they—the others were incredibly wonderful so I would hate to besmirch, you know, all of them for behavior of two.

Renee      : Yeah. Do you think it’s with television shows? I wonder if it’s the same on film, and it’s so different, you know? Because what to someone, say, Phillip Seymour Hall it’s something about actors are meant (Sharon: Phillip Seymour Hoffman) to support—what’s his name?

Sharon     : Phillip Seymour Hoffman.

Renee      : Phillip Seymour Hoffman, that actors are meant to support each other. You know? Do you know what I mean? And you wonder what TV shows—you wonder if… if it’s too much about, uh, the ego and getting on, you know, the cover of TV Guide and… and try to, you know… fight your way to be the next TV star.

Sharon     : You know, there are more ensembles television shows now than there used to be. Used to be just like the cast of 2. Usually a hero and a sidekick. And it was that way for years. Now—nowadays are all these comedy shows with Raymond and Friends and whatever, uh… a lot of ensembles. And… you can’t always service everyone every week. So maybe that brings out a little bit more sense of—

Lucy        : Maybe it’s just certain people and really insecure? Maybe it’s just individuals.

Renee      : It’s probably in any media.

Lucy        : Yeah. And I really believe it. A tone’s set by (Renee: Oh yeah.) the people that guide—the producer –executive producer sets the tone.

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : Um, in terms of the way people treat one another: the executive producer, the stars, set a great—the work ethic.

Renee      : Yeah.

Lucy        : The mood on set is a lot about the DP thing, you think? (Renee: Mm… I don’t know.) But the audience never know that...

Renee      : I don’t—I just think that it changed for us, you know, what every other week we’d have someone, you know, they alternated, um… well, yes. Because the director was still the guest as compared to the DP. But I think it’s more of the star… star/stars, whatever, then anyone… yes.

Sharon     : That they follow the lead…

Renee      : That you’re, uh, you are inviting. That you are, uh, inviting them into the family unit, you know? And that you’re working har—oh…

Lucy        : But I do relate to that being jealous thing. I do relate to that.

Renee      : Well… do you remember, I mean, remember on Dangerous Prey? Do you remember how, um, what’s his name? Murdoch? All I remember is the character. (Sharon: No.) He wanted to leave for some reason. He didn’t wanna wait. Because that his next scene was gonna be the end of the day and he didn’t wanna wait all day. And so they’re doing Lucy’s stuff, but Lucy’s been working since 6 AM, and had been working all week, and weeks in and out before that. (Lucy: That’s one that Renee was directing.) And I was directing. And it’s just interesting. I’m aware of it anyway but to be on the other side saying, ‘look, you know, we’re having people that are working day in and day out. You gotta cover that, and… ‘cause she’s back on the next morning,’ and to appease his ego was really interesting.

Lucy        : Of a guest star.

Renee      : Of a GUEST star.

Lucy        : Who really just should’ve been on his best behavior. Yeah, when you’re—when you’re coming into something, you better be on your best behavior. And, um…

Renee      : But talking about work ethic, because you’re there, you’re working, I think you were pregnant? You were, what? You were very pregnant. No, you weren’t pregnant.

Lucy        : No, I had my—‘cause I was in that outfit.

Renee      : No, I was talking about something else. Yeah, yeah. You weren’t pregnant. That’s right.

Lucy        : I was totally enjoying the bikini.

Renee      : Yeah, that’s right. Um, anyway, but you set a work ethic for, you know, well everyone did. The grips, you know, everyone was really hard.

Lucy        : Everybody was slaving the same way. Yeah.

Renee      : So, I mean, it was interesting to have someone come in and not want to… but just going—

Lucy        : Yeah. That guy hurt himself just by being a bit nancy. And, um, right. And Renee says to him, ‘look,’ you know, ‘I know how hard this is.’ He goes, ‘you just don’t understand. You do not understand.’ She goes, ‘yes I do.’ And he goes, ‘Look, you don’t know. You truly don’t know how hard it is to learn this thing and do it, and then hurt yourself and still have to go back,’ and then she goes, ‘I do understand.’ He goes, ‘you can’t.’ And she goes, ‘Look. Yeah. I do.’

Renee      : So funny. That is hilarious.

Sharon     : Six years!

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : But, yeah, it was interesting. But, yeah, you set the—talking about that, you set the standard, and most everybody—

Lucy        : She was being pretty nicey-nice with him.

Renee      : I was too nice, you know. Looking back I was a little too soft on him. But I was worried he was gonna leave the set. You know, things that you worry about. I was truly worried he wasn’t gonna perform.

Lucy        : He wouldn’t get out of the car or something at some point. So I went up there, and he was, like—yeah they were saying, ’Lucy’s where?’ ‘She’s on set. She’s doing it.’ And he goes, ‘oh, she’ll understand.’ No, she did not understand. So I went up to the car and said, ‘you get your f**king ass down there on set and you do your work!’

Renee      : I know! That was funny, ‘cause I didn’t… I didn’t do that with him, and I—and I was actually glad that you did, you know, because someone needed to. And there was no one else that was doing that. And I thought, well, why was I still soft on him? Oops sorry. I was so soft because I was, yeah, there’s a little bit of fear that I still have to work with him—that was Friday, I think, I had to work with him Saturday and I was worried what if I, you know, what if he just shuts down? He did shut down on me on Saturday anyway. He was… oh yeah.

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : Oh, he actually was—

Lucy        : Yeah. He had very—

Renee      : Worst behavior on Saturday if you can believe it. Like… yeah. I don’t… ‘cause it gets me. But, yeah, he was, like, saying names and all sorts of stuff. But, yeah, he was—he was… yeah, not about you. But, yeah. About me! Actually directed at me. I’m, like, ‘did I just hear that?’ It was amazing!

Lucy        : But you know what? That’s a really good training for you as a director.

Renee      : It was.

Lucy        : Really good training.

Renee      : I’m thinking about that guy. Yeah. ‘Cause it’s crazy. ‘Cause you have to—it’s a delicate balance. You still have to—you don’t want him to shut down, you need a performance, but at the same time, you gotta… snap him out of whatever… tough situation you’re in.

Lucy        : I think when your baby’s like that, it’s like, um, it’s like children. (Renee: It is exactly like children.) For somebody like him, he was being a bad baby and he needed—there’s no discussion about this. You just, ‘yeah. Okay. Get on your mark,’ just to—you notice that from the beginning and just keep it real simple for them (Renee: But, yeah…) because then—he is being a naughty, silly, little boy at 40-something years old is not acceptable.

Renee      : That was he—really? God. Yeah, well, unacceptable. Period. But yeah, that was a good lesson. ‘Cause I was still like the kid, you know? And it was only my second episode, and still a little green and, uh… but yeah, that was a… that was vital. That was a good one to know.

Sharon     : Put your foot down. Yeah.

Renee      : Put it in my back pocket. So I have to remember how to handle that.

Sharon     : Well we gossiped right out of time.

Renee      : Oh.

Sharon     : Yeah. It’s… (Renee: Oh, yeah, we sure did.) we gotta—we gotta pick up babies. Yeah.

Lucy        : Gotta run. Go.

Sharon     : Don’t say I talked you out of your chair.

Renee      : Thank you.

Sharon     : Well thank you, ladies! Thank you, pregnant lady. Thank you lady with ____ [I don’t what Sharon’s saying…]

Lucy        : ‘Thank you, lady.’

Sharon     : ‘Thank you lady.’ Do you know who that is? ‘Lady! Lady!’ it’s Jerry Lewis. Was that in your routine? Did you know who I was doing?

Renee      : I was gonna ask—I still want to hear about your Battlestar Galactica, Lucy. Are you, um… are you gonna go?

Lucy        : Um, I don’t know anything about it.

Renee      : You’re going?

Lucy        : Yeah, I am going up.

Renee      : So you’re all ready?

 

***

 

Sharon     : I was just saying to Renee, I over-questioned. I had such—I had at least another page full—full of great stuff. Last time I came up short.

Lucy        : Oh?

Sharon     : But we got all—so gossipy and so… I also think—

Lucy        : But that’s the best, right?

Sharon     : Yeah. *shows Lucy the questions* This one.

Lucy        : *reads the question* Renee, you’re quoted in an article saying, ‘I don’t quite think I knew my own sexuality at all until I was cast on Xena and worked with Lucy Lawless.’ What does that mean? I have no idea what that means.

Sharon     : You have no idea? This one here. *points to another question*

Lucy        : *still on the same question* ‘I knew my sexuality at all’? Oh my God! I’m dying to know! Hey, Ren!

Renee      : *from inside the washroom* Yeah, hang on.

Lucy        : I’ll just—I’ll read this through the door.

Renee      : *from inside the washroom* Yeah.

Lucy        : This is one of the questions: “Renee, you were quoted in an article saying, ‘I don’t think I knew my own sexuality at all until I was cast on Xena and worked around Lucy Lawless.’ What did you mean?” What did you mean?

Renee      : *still from inside the washroom* Let me just flush that one. What did I mean?

Lucy        : What the hell did you mean by that?

Renee      : *still inside* No, it’s funny.

Lucy        : What the— *reads another question* ‘God’s green earth. Does that make—Lucy you talked with Bill Clinton.’ Uh, ‘…introduce me to the John Ferversia…’

Renee      : *comes out of the washroom* So anyway, the answer to that would be…

Sharon     : Yes?

Renee      : Um, grab my coffee inside.

Lucy        : Yeah.

Renee      : Um, because you’re always confident in your body. I thought, you know, I didn’t know you were called Unco. Maybe then I would’ve change my mind. Yeah. You were always confident in your sexuality. It’s good to be around women who are confident in their sexuality, you see. Because then... *fades to LL&ROC going down the stairs*

 

Sharon     : Can he go down first and actually get you coming out the door?

 

*LL&ROC come down the stairs*

Renee      : So you’re gonna be in town for a little bit?

Lucy        : Yeah. Not for long, like, the next couple of months.

Renee      : Oh, okay.

Lucy        : And then off to Canadia.

Renee      : Canadiaaa…

 

*outside*

Sharon     : I have one last question. What was the latest movie you saw?

Renee      : Walk The Line. (Lucy: Did you like it?) Have you seen that?

Lucy        : Oh you got the Walk The Line haircut on. Got your hairstyle on.

Renee      : Yeah. There you go.

Sharon     : Is that the June Carter, uh, haircut?

Renee      : You should see it, Lucy. It’s great.

Lucy        : I haven’t seen a movie in – I did see Capote. It’s the only movie I’ve seen in about a year.

Renee      : Hugs.

Sharon     : Hugs!

Renee      : I’ll talk to you soon, Lucy.

Lucy        : Okay, yeah.

 

*they hugged and said something I can’t make out and the screen fades out to black*